Andrew

There are turbullences ahead.

Some past actions could be benchmarked to finding a solution to the multiverse of issues.

We are still experiencing Entropy

Cheers, *.**/noah*

On Wed, 10 Sept 2025, 11:12 am Andrew Alston, aa@alstonnetworks.net wrote:

Care to explain why you believe this Noah?

I mean - it's a very vague statement that is highly subjective, and doesn't really contain any objective statements that can be evaluated by anyone.

It's the same as saying Mars really has issues.....

Andrew

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 9:27 AM Noah via zanog-discuss < zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

...

Folks

I will be very honest. We really have issues in this continent.

Cheers, *.**/noah*

On Tue, 9 Sept 2025, 10:47 pm Edrich de Lange via zanog-discuss, < zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

...

Hi all

With the upcoming AFRINIC election, ZANOG encourages all eligible voters to research the candidates, and cast their votes carefully. We believe the candidates below represent the best mix of experience, integrity, and commitment to strengthening AFRINIC, combining technical expertise, governance knowledge, and a dedication to transparency, accountability, and member-driven leadership for the future of our Registry

https://election.afrinic.net/candidate-slate

Seat 1 (North Africa) - Abdelaziz Hilali Seat 2 (West Africa) - Emmanuel Adewale Adedokun Seat 3 (Indian Ocean) - Kaleem Usmani Seat 4 (Central Africa) - Laurent Ntumba Seat 5 (Southern Africa) - Carla Sanderson Seat 6 (East Africa) - Fiona Asonga Seat 7 (Non-regional/Independent 1) - Ben Roberts Seat 8 (Non-regional/Independent 2) - Adewole David Ajao

Kind regards

Edd _______________________________________________ zanog-discuss mailing list -- zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za To unsubscribe send an email to zanog-discuss-leave@lists.nog.net.za

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Hi Mark, I would say SmartAfrica Directives, look at the full plan ahead and you will get it right. I get it you feel, but the following days and weeks will unfold what is not yet publicly told

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 9:16 AM Mark Elkins via zanog-discuss < zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

Hi folks

There will always appear to be problems as long as there are people that disagree with our personal viewpoint....

On that subject - why is ZANOG suggesting non-South Africans for seat 9 whilst I am standing for that seat. Don't we want a little more influence on the AFRINIC Board. Please vote for me for seat 8.

I am an ex-AFRINIC Board Member (the board needs some history), the re-creator of CO.ZA, DNS Trainer, part of the DNS Study of Africa, Part of the ICANN DNSSEC & Security management, local ISOC Board - etc. I run an ISP, am a Registrar and Registry operator of EDU.ZA On 10/09/2025 08:25, Noah via zanog-discuss wrote:

Folks

I will be very honest. We really have issues in this continent.

Cheers, *.**/noah*

On Tue, 9 Sept 2025, 10:47 pm Edrich de Lange via zanog-discuss, < zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

...

Hi all

With the upcoming AFRINIC election, ZANOG encourages all eligible voters to research the candidates, and cast their votes carefully. We believe the candidates below represent the best mix of experience, integrity, and commitment to strengthening AFRINIC, combining technical expertise, governance knowledge, and a dedication to transparency, accountability, and member-driven leadership for the future of our Registry

https://election.afrinic.net/candidate-slate

Seat 1 (North Africa) - Abdelaziz Hilali Seat 2 (West Africa) - Emmanuel Adewale Adedokun Seat 3 (Indian Ocean) - Kaleem Usmani Seat 4 (Central Africa) - Laurent Ntumba Seat 5 (Southern Africa) - Carla Sanderson Seat 6 (East Africa) - Fiona Asonga Seat 7 (Non-regional/Independent 1) - Ben Roberts Seat 8 (Non-regional/Independent 2) - Adewole David Ajao

Kind regards

Edd _______________________________________________ zanog-discuss mailing list -- zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za To unsubscribe send an email to zanog-discuss-leave@lists.nog.net.za

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--

Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje@posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

[image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins]

---

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Hi Hendrik

There were meetings by SmartAfrica and discussions as well. An email invite then the technical consultant was there along with two lawyers. the Lists are a depiction, except this time for one seat. It is no longer news that there are plans to relocate afrinic to Ehiopia

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 10:10 AM hvjunk hvjunk@gmail.com wrote:

Good Day Amin,

...

On 10 Sep 2025, at 10:19, Amin Dayekh via zanog-discuss <

zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

...

Hi Mark, I would say SmartAfrica Directives, look at the full plan ahead

and you will get it right. I get it you feel, but the following days and weeks will unfold what is not yet publicly told

Could you please be so kind as to release those papers? It is starting to sound like the boy crying wolf, and if it is legal actions that is preventing you, rather not speculate and spread F.U.D. until the time comes.

Hendrik

Nishal,

That is very correct, double check

On the other hand, contingency planning is indeed a healthy part of governance, and I appreciate your clarification. At the same time, I must (respectfully) say that my concern is not about whether options existed, but about how and when they were raised. The fact that I may not speak of certain matters does not mean I am unaware of them. This goes back as far as 2021 or 2022.

If you had been present in that meeting, you would have realised that this was not presented as a neutral “contingency.” Relocation was raised not as a distant possibility, but in a way that suggested it was already being shaped as a community consensus even though such proposals had been on the table since 2020–2021 and were already rejected. The very framing of the question *“should AFRINIC relocate, and to which country?”* at a time when the Registry was under severe legal and institutional pressure, created the impression of a community-driven mandate that did not truly exist.

Moreover, in this election a segment of our membership cannot even vote, because of earlier court orders. Would it not have been more strategic, through the same Smart Africa engagement, to focus our collective effort on lifting those chains, safeguarding AFRINIC’s survival, and strengthening the foundations of governance rather than opening relocation as the headline discussion? From a strategic and marketing perspective, such timing sends the wrong signal to members and governments, especially when ministers are themselves being drawn into the conversation.

Perhaps the most responsible course now is to allow the new Board to settle and to concentrate on repairing governance, protecting the membership, and restoring trust in the Registry. That is where the community’s strength lies.

And finally, without any sense of discrimination but as a simple observation, I do find it striking that the call for “new blood” is directed at some, while at the same time, very familiar old faces continue to appear on the same lists. Renewal is important, but it must be genuine, not selective.

Kind regards, Amin Dayekh

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 10:55 AM Nishal Goburdhan via zanog-discuss < zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

On 10 Sep 2025, at 11:24, Amin Dayekh via zanog-discuss wrote:

...

It is no longer news that there are plans to relocate afrinic to Ehiopia

this is incorrect.

there are _several_ countries that are being considered as a “safe haven” for a future … african registry.

ET was considered because for obvious reasons (flight hub, home of AUC, ..). it’s not my place to discuss and explain each of the rest - except to say that, if a future african registry had to relocate to *anywhere* it would *absolutely* require the assistance of the receiving country’s government. again, the reasons should be self-evident (tax exemptions, visas, etc.). and having a recognised IGO paving the way for those discussions to begin, is not the ragnarok that people claim it is. in fact, i would say it’s quite healthy, because they bring gravitas to any negotiating table.

what you *should* have taken away from that call is “here are options; go discuss”

that’s called: “planning for contingencies”. which, is healthy. don’t confuse that with “conspiracy”.

there are several iterations of what a future “fixed” afrinic might look like. it is too early to speculate what the final outcome would be, but whatever that is can not happen without buy-in from afrinic’s membership. if you are trying to imply that smartafrica doesn’t recognise this, or is seeking to subvert that, then, goto (1).

—n. _______________________________________________ zanog-discuss mailing list -- zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za To unsubscribe send an email to zanog-discuss-leave@lists.nog.net.za

Nishal,

as i said: “ .. can not happen without buy-in from afrinic’s membership”

regardless of how any part of that discussion may have been interpreted; that truth still holds. maybe, we just interpret people, and events differently. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

at the time these events happened, and as of today:

1.

*AFRINIC is under judicial restraint.* The Government of Mauritius itself recognised in July 2025 that the receivership and winding-up petition were “legally questionable” and had paralysed the registry, preventing the issuance of IP addresses since November 2024, which strategically resumed just before the annulled election. 2.

*The membership was disenfranchised.* Court orders meant that a wide base of AFRINIC members could not vote. That fact alone makes any attempt to extract a recorded “community consensus” on relocation highly problematic; it cannot credibly be presented as the will of the membership when so many were legally barred from participating or exercising their rights. When this board is elected, can they also vote on financials? or even enjoy other rights as other members?. 3.

*The timing was inappropriate.* When an institution is paralysed, its priority should be *survival, restoring lawful governance, and repairing its bylaws and legal foundation*. Suggesting relocation at that moment diverted attention away from the root causes of the crisis and risked reinforcing a narrative that the African community itself was calling for relocation, when in reality, prior proposals in 2020–2021 had already been rejected, though informal. At the same time, it is an attempt to create unrest and doubts, or increase doubts about the host country. It is like a hoax that spreads widely and people believe it, relocating AFRINIC is not the solution, court is the only solution. But here there is a question, Why ethiopia and not Cape Verde? even when the suggestion in a way of question was on the table, the answer was given smartly and the new destination as well. 4.

*Strategic priority should have been elsewhere.* If Smart Africa or other stakeholders wanted to exercise leadership, it would have been far more strategic to use their influence to *lift the restrictions on member voting* and enable a functioning Board, rather than organising a survey about moving AFRINIC.

*The core issue is not whether relocation would eventually require member approval, but that raising it during a crisis, when AFRINIC’s very ability to function was being constrained, was both mistimed and potentially misleading.*

...

Moreover, in this election a segment of our membership cannot even vote, because of earlier court orders. Would it not have been more strategic, [..]

perfect is the enemy of complete. there are many parts of this election that many people would have liked to see be done differently. you might see value in rehashing those - but, since we’re in the middle of an election where, we’ve ostensibly been able to get valid voters registered to vote, and there’s more than 170 votes cast (which is already better than most afrinic elections) - i don’t.

I hear your point about “perfect being the enemy of complete,” but I believe this is not about perfection; it is about inclusion and legitimacy, adherence to governance norms and standards, and our own bylaw.

A paid-up member’s right to vote is a foundational principle of AFRINIC’s governance. When court orders have prevented a significant segment of the membership from exercising that right, moving ahead with an election is not simply an imperfect process; it risks being fundamentally defective. Participation numbers, whether 170 or 700, cannot substitute for the principle that *all eligible members must be able to participate*.

Even the Government of Mauritius, in its recent notices, acknowledged that the receivership and winding-up petitions had paralysed AFRINIC and were legally questionable. In that context, the more strategic course would have been to use Smart Africa’s convening power to work toward releasing those restrictions and restoring the voting franchise, rather than to launch a relocation survey. That would have aligned with the Ministerial Declaration’s emphasis on protecting AFRINIC as a bottom-up, member-driven institution【53:_EN__AFRINICs_MINISTERIAL_DECLARATION.pdf†L1-L20】.

Being “in the middle of an election” should not mean overlooking flaws that touch directly on inclusivity, due process, and ICP-2 compliance. If we are serious about safeguarding AFRINIC, then the order of priority must be: restore lawful voting rights, seat a legitimate board, rebuild our governance, and only then, if truly necessary, discuss long-term contingencies like relocation, transparently and with full community participation, not one-on-one hidden meetings.

And finally, without any sense of discrimination but as a simple

...

observation, I do find it striking that the call for “new blood” is directed at some, while at the same time, very familiar old faces

continue

...

to appear on the same lists. Renewal is important, but it must be

genuine,

...

not selective.

equally, i did not propose a single token criterion. i suggested several,

each of them relevant. choosing to highlight only one, whilst ignoring the others is a deliberate narrowing of the discussion, and weakens your own case. careful that you don’t advocate bias, wrapped up in principle ..

I am in total disagreement with Mark’s running for a board position and explained to him personally, but out of fairness, I must also say things as they are: it is striking that the call for “new blood” was raised against him, while very familiar old faces appear on the same lists. That selective use of arguments undermines credibility. Indeed, being criticised in this way might even create in me, and in the 48 peers I speak with, a sense of sympathy that could push us toward supporting him, simply because fairness matters to us.

Finally, let us also recall the starting point in April 2025 and the so-called SmartAfrica “toolkit.” That document suggested a list of sixteen names and encouraged member states to adopt it as their own, some regulators were surprised that they were not even engaged on selectionn of candidates from their countries. Let us recall also that SmartAfrica represents only 42 of 54 states; it cannot claim to speak for the entire region. When that list re-emerged in September, almost identical except for one seat, it gave the impression of a ready-made consensus. This impression does not reflect the community’s will.

If the true intent were to help, the more strategic course would have been to support Afrinic in courts through strateic advise, legal representation, empower the member-base, at a minimum to focus on releasing the voting restrictions, enabling all members in good standing to participate, and working together to repair our governance and legal foundations, not to impose candidates and claim consensus. Only after that, with a legitimate Board in place and full enfranchisement restored, could long-term questions such as relocation be meaningfully and transparently discussed. Shalom On Thu, Sep 11, 2025 at 12:57 AM Nishal Goburdhan via zanog-discuss < zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

On 10 Sep 2025, at 12:43, Amin Dayekh wrote:

...

The very framing of the question *“should AFRINIC relocate, and to which country?”* at a time

when

...

the Registry was under severe legal and institutional pressure, created

the

...

impression of a community-driven mandate that did not truly exist.

as i said: “ .. can not happen without buy-in from afrinic’s membership” regardless of how any part of that discussion may have been interpreted; that truth still holds.

maybe, we just interpret people, and events differently. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

...

Moreover, in this election a segment of our membership cannot even vote, because of earlier court orders. Would it not have been more strategic, [..]

perfect is the enemy of complete. there are many parts of this election that many people would have liked to see be done differently. you might see value in rehashing those - but, since we’re in the middle of an election where, we’ve ostensibly been able to get valid voters registered to vote, and there’s more than 170 votes cast (which is already better than most afrinic elections) - i don’t.

...

Perhaps the most responsible course now is to allow the new Board to

settle

...

and to concentrate on repairing governance, protecting the membership,

and

...

restoring trust in the Registry. That is where the community’s strength lies.

in this, we agree. (still noting that disagreement and debate is important to build a better system :-))

...

And finally, without any sense of discrimination but as a simple observation, I do find it striking that the call for “new blood” is directed at some, while at the same time, very familiar old faces

continue

...

to appear on the same lists. Renewal is important, but it must be

genuine,

...

not selective.

equally, i did not propose a single token criterion. i suggested several, each of them relevant. choosing to highlight only one, whilst ignoring the others is a deliberate narrowing of the discussion, and weakens your own case. careful that you don’t advocate bias, wrapped up in principle ..

—n. _______________________________________________ zanog-discuss mailing list -- zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za To unsubscribe send an email to zanog-discuss-leave@lists.nog.net.za

Hi Nishal

Historically, AFRINIC governance has never been about really resource members deciding for themselves across the continent.

The politics of AFRINIC governance are literally centered around South Africa, Kenya and Nigeria. While AFRINIC is a supposed regional internet registry in terms of broad outlook, her governance, the so-called bottom-up multi-stakeholder self governance is sort of an illusion.

For many years, actors within South Africa, Kenya and often Nigeria/Ghana decided who became a director of AFRINIC. The rest of the countries across the continent just followed through. Those decisions about which candidate served on the AFRINIC board in the past 10+ years were determined by very few individuals through private and public mailing list endorsements of select candidates. A lot of subjectivity was employed. I can remember how many times my twin brother Alston literally sent emails on a private mailing list such as NAP Africa list or zanog, telling folks who he believed were the best candidates (how did things turn out). I remember vividly during physical meetings how different folks were involved in scheming and plotting who shall be voted in and who shall be dropped depending on which camp folks belonged in and which individual carried the most proxy votes.

In fact I have been part of this very problem as well personally and most people who know me, are very much aware that I often reached out to vouch for some candidates against others. It was until I volunteered on the NOMCOM in 2022 that I saw through the messy politics of AFRINIC governance because I had to remain neutral with my colleagues on that 2022 NOMCOM but that is a story for another day in this case study called AFRINIC.

I mean look at how AFRINIC's own staff express open bias in terms of resource members engagement. They concentrate their engagements within South Africa, Kenya and perhaps Nigeria. They basically focus engagement in the darker parts of the below map. The staff are quick to jump on NOG based social media groups to provide quick updates to resource members. The same updates are often not extended to the rest of resource members across the continent via mailing lists who are not on social media. This makes sense since majority of the funding that bank rolls AFRINIC is sourced from those countries with the most members. They therefore get the best treatment and unbiased attention. This behaviour is universal.

[image: the real afrinic.jpeg]

You are calling out Mark Elkins for tribal thinking, but you forget Mark Elkins has been in the DNS and DNS-Sec space for years and that tribe will support Elkins out of potential bias while he seeks support from the ZANOG tribe openly unlike the endorsed candidates who ZANOG resource members are being told to vote for in what is supposed to be a free and fair elections.

It does not matter if it's ZANOG, Smart Africa, NRS, AfStar pulling the top-down strings, etc.... Tribalism and sectarianism reigns high and it's the very reason why the AFRINIC Ideal has suffered controversy after controversy because the bottom-up self governance is masquerading while various interest groups advance self interest.

These are my observations on the broken configuration that is AFRINIC.

Cheers, *Noah Maina*

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 11:43 AM Nishal Goburdhan via zanog-discuss < zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za> wrote:

On 10 Sep 2025, at 10:13, Mark Elkins via zanog-discuss wrote:

...

There will always appear to be problems as long as there are people that

disagree with our personal viewpoint....

i think that the OP conflates “problems” with “disagreement. disagreement is healthy; everyone here should know why.

...

On that subject - why is ZANOG suggesting non-South Africans for seat 9

whilst I am standing for that seat. Don't we want a little more influence on the AFRINIC Board. Please vote for me for seat 8.

i don’t speak for ZANOG, but, i think that your expectation that ZANOG should support a south african just because “south african” is flawed. i’m a fiercely proud ZAn; and that’s exactly why i must call out this kind of “tribalist thinking”. we don’t need more of that. and quite frankly mark, you should already be aware of the damage that this sort of divisive messaging has caused in the afrinic community in the past.

we should be working to build bridges, not reinforce divisions.

(ZANOG (the org) SHOULD vote for whomever it feels is the best candidate, and perhaps the people behind casting that vote, may explain their rationale in a follow-up message)

...

I am an ex-AFRINIC Board Member (the board needs some history), the

re-creator of CO.ZA, DNS Trainer, part of the DNS Study of Africa, Part of the ICANN DNSSEC & Security management, local ISOC Board - etc. I run an ISP, am a Registrar and Registry operator of EDU.ZA

imho, the board also needs:

• new blood and new perspective;
• bridge builders, not kings; because collaboration matters more than

hierarchy

• humility; since leadership is about service, and not position

[..]

-n. _______________________________________________ zanog-discuss mailing list -- zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za To unsubscribe send an email to zanog-discuss-leave@lists.nog.net.za

Hi Mark,

On 10 Sep 2025, at 10:13, Mark Elkins via zanog-discuss zanog-discuss@lists.nog.net.za wrote:

Hi folks

There will always appear to be problems as long as there are people that disagree with our personal viewpoint….

Welcome to life and politics, where the only things that matter is how you can push down your opponent down in the most vile way possible…. yeah, I don’t like politics and the only trustable politician is not even the one on the burned police photo, but the one in his grave ;(

On that subject - why is ZANOG suggesting non-South Africans for seat 9 whilst I am standing for that seat. Don't we want a little more influence on the AFRINIC Board. Please vote for me for seat 8.

There is an Afrikaans saying: “Jakkals prys sy eie stert” (Direct translation: The jackal praises his own tail)

I am an ex-AFRINIC Board Member (the board needs some history), the re-creator of CO.ZA, DNS Trainer, part of the DNS Study of Africa, Part of the ICANN DNSSEC & Security management, local ISOC Board - etc. I run an ISP, am a Registrar and Registry operator of EDU.ZA

And the community should be grateful for those contributions Mark… they might not be as thankful as you want them to be.

And here is the problem, getting back to my first statement above, you’ll be putting a bigger target on your back than before, and I don’t want to see your other work marred with the dirty politics this coming AfriNIC board would have to deal with and sort out. I don’t envy them...

By your own admissions in your last last paragraph, you served the community more by doing the technical stuff you are good at. Please, rather get involved with your trainer experiences in promoting IPv6, as THAT is a area that is in need of education and growth to make a technical difference in the foreseeable future Mark.

Hendrik Visage